I've got to be honest, I tend to always cringe a little when I see Chinese people who have obviously 'westernised' their first names. In fact, there are quite a few fellow ifgogo authors that go by anglosised "English" names.
Oddly, while this name-changing phenomenon is quite common among Chinese but doesn't seem to be as common among other ethnic groups (as a means of comparison, the Japanese in particular come to mind).
I've always gone with my given name of Lun Zhang (or Zhang Lun, if you want to be pedantic...) and have never seen any logical reason why I should change it. My parents chose my name when I was born. It is a part of my identity and crucially for me, a connection to my Chinese heritage.
Yes, the pronounciation of my name does occassionally get mangled by people from a non-Chinese speaking background (i.e. the majority of my friends). Yes, it isn't common and quickly sets me apart (which I would view as a positive thing). But the fact of the matter is, I've never ever encountered a time where my Chinese name has proven to be a hindrance. Or conversely, I've never been in a situation where I've felt it necessary to have an 'English' name.
My question is this: why do you feel it necessary to change your name and not just use the pinyin equivalent of your actual Chinese name?
Actually, my supervisor and other professors always call me "Jichuan", although some of them may have pronunciation problem. I am quite agree with that we should keep our names.
Good question.
My answer is, the PinYin-name always makes people confused. For example, my name "Qirui" is really hard to pronounce for a guy with English-accent.
Anyway, if you need an English name like me, get one, if you don't need, just use your original name as Lun.
Qirui, I wrote a reply to Cat's comments regarding pronounciation below on so I won't repeat myself. But I agree that Qirui would be difficult to pronouce for a westerner!
However, I think it is more of an issue about cultural pride. Why must a Chinese person change their name? Westerners aren't stupid. They can learn how to pronounce Chinese names.
Just for interest, you don't see Hu Jintao call himself "James Hu" at the APEC conference...
name reflect how someone sees his/her own identity.
wind hasn't moved. flag hasn't move. your mind has moved. don't ask why people changed their names. ask them why they changed their mind. or maybe they just didn't like the expectation which was given when they were born.
It's fine not to like expectations and it's fine to change one's mind. But don't you think that by changing something as fundamental as changing a name is showing a degree of disrespect to one's parents (who bestowed the name) and a certain disregard to one's cultural identity?
My post (and subsequent question) is alluding more to the fact that there are certain people who believe that by changing their name, they can become "more western".
then, what's the dark side of being more westernized?
Because Chinese should be proud to be Chinese.
Thanks Lun. Totally agree and I am sure that Cat Chen will agree this too.
I believe he has nothing to do with "fawning on the Western World".
you has successfully convinced me that you're a patriot, but i don't think your statement is convincing.
first, diversity helps our species survive. we don't have to mold everybody into the same model. making every chinese sharing the same attitude is not only impossible, but also unnecessary.
second, chinese people tend to say that, you should do this, and you should do that, but this is totally unconvincing. you see, you can only control yourself. we're in a round table and we share the same equality. you don't have any privilege to tell me what i should do, right?
what if you provide new ideas and options, and make people think that yours are better then their original ones, and make them feel comfortable to accept it? do you think that it's more convincing? do you think that it would work better than the should or shouldn't phrases?
i'll give you a solid example for this. when you meet a new girl, and you wanna get long term contact with her, what would you do?
what if you list reason 1, reason 2, and reason 3 for her to give you her phone number, and finally say that "you should give me your phone number"? will this helps you reveal her number? what if you make her feel that you're trustworthy, and feel comfortable to give you her phone number?
good reasons may not make effective communication. no matter how reasonable you sounds, if your audiences don't accept it, it's not an effective communication.
hmmm okay, i think you've totally taken the discussion to another level (and off-track) here.
to address your first point regarding diversity, i don't disagree with you. but i fail to see how this is even remotely connected to my original argument (reminder: "what is the motive for people to change their name?"). the guts of my argument are (to repeat myself abit here): if you already have a perfectly fine name, why would you change it?
to address your second point, i think you've miscontrued my post. i'm not telling anyone to do anything. i'm merely putting a view out there. you can call yourself cat (or dog, or cow or giraffe), i really couldn't care less. but i'm just interested in hearing other people's opinions on why they feel it necessary to have another name.
and i've got to be honest, you've totally lost me with your "girl and getting a phone number" piece. maybe something has been lost in translation... but to humour you, if i was out in a bar and i wanted to ask a girl for her number, i wouldn't start rattling off reasons why she should give me her number. i'd probably just ask "what's your number?" and if she gives it to me: awesome. if she doesn't: bad luck. always more fish in the sea. haha.
obviously, you and i have differing views on this. and obviously you think i've made a poor argument. that's fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion. but at the same time, i don't think you have made a compelling counter-argument. it might be easier to just agree to disagree at this point in time.
i just did these replies for one sentence. that is, chinese should be proud to be chinese. it makes me feel uncomfortable. what i wanted to say is that, you can't force every chinese to be proud of his/her nationality. if you wanna make more chinese to be proud of his/her nationality, this is not gonna work.
why did i say so? because i feel that you were writing a post for that kinda purpose. you haven't written any example like why a UK citizen would like to have a chinese name, or why a japanese citizen would not like to have a german name. you just didn't make a neutral standpoint in your post.
finally, name is name, and identity is identity. name is just some part of the identity. to some people, name is the whole identity. to some corporation, name is just part of its CI. anyway, your assumption is that if you have already had a perfect name. but what if you're not somehow satisfied with your identity? then you got to change it, maybe start it with changing your name.
anyway, i hope you understand that, i just don't feel right for that sentence. chinese people tend to teach other people what they should do, especially when that chinese think that he/she has some kinda privilege, like being as an emperor or father. in fact, nobody needs that kinda teaching. everybody has his/her own way.
Haha, okay. I think I get where you are coming from regarding the "Chinese should be proud" comment. I think it's an interesting cultural point you raise and I think you should consider writing a separate post about it.
It's also fair enough if people change their names because they are dissatisfied with their identity. But that is a more complicated issue than just a name... it's probably more to do with self-esteem and self-realisation.
And trust me, I could give you many examples of people from other cultures (Australia, European, African and South-east Asian) who have changed their names and I would pose a similar question. But I figure considering this blog's audience is mainly Chinese, it would be easier to relate to if I used Chinese as an example. But just a funny side story, I know a guy who had parents from Poland who was called Lawrence and one day, he told us that Lawrence wasn't his "real" name. So obviously we all asked what his real name was. He replied "Wawrzyniec" (If you think Chinese names are hard to pronounce...).
And one last point, I think I've been abit of a fraud with the whole "patriotism" stance considering I"m actually Australian! haha. I've been an Australian citizen since I was 5... (But I'm very proud of my Chinese heritage, obviously).
Yes, I know Lun very much and he's a great man. Anyway, Cat Chen is also a very great man, he's been writing a lot of meaningful stories in his blogs for years.
Anyway, I think you are just involved too much in some special situations.
Chinese should be proud to be Chinese, but anyway, as there are lots of people still be working for their food and clothes, what kind of "proud" will they know? They even don't know what is "proud" before they can get some food when they are hungry. (Maybe this example is a little unsuitable here, but I hope you understand what i'm talking about)
I am sure it's complicated and the whole damn problems take a long time to be solved.
I agree with you.The pronunciation of our chinese PinYin-name is very hard for many foreigners.e.g. my surname RAO , most of persian can't pronounce it.So I asked them use my English name Tony
Hey, glad to see u here, but ... your IP seems from Wuhan, are you in Wuhan now?
yes, i have a simple English name. I really want to use my PinYin name, but when we communicate with people who speak english, an english name will be helpful.
As what we can see that many people who come from english speaking countries usually have a chinese name. I will make you feel better.
Yes, many foreigners are using their Chinese names when they are in China.
BTW, so why not leave your English name here :)
Please please don't use Japanese as an example for this. I'll explain this later, but let's talk about name translation and changing first.
Do you know that officers from UK who was in charge in HK got Chinese names? Those Chinese names are not direct translation. They're just like normal Chinese names, with common Chinese surnames, and are in 2 to 4 Chinese characters. These gentlemen from UK who changed their names are just wanted to be local, and make local people think that they're easy to get along with. That is right for people from UK, and that is right for us.
Your point is that Chinese names are easy to be spoken by foreigners, so why bother to change them. That is not always true. Try to think about people who have an "x" in pinyin of their name. If you can't figure it out, try asking a foreigner to read this: Xin Xin Xiang Rong. Now you get my point. People who have an "x" in their name got to replace it with an "s" or "z", at least.
And here's more details about Japanese characteristics. They copy stuffs from different cultures, but they'll never just copy them and give credits to the original creators. They'll change the stuffs a little bit, and make them in their own way. For example, JavaScript, which is a programming language. If you say JavaScript to a Japanese IT Pro, he would have no idea about what you're talking. You have to say the word in Japanese tones, which they call Katakana (???). That's totally different from what we do. We'll translate it, as ????, or not, either way. But we'll definitely not translate it as ????.
Actually, my point was that Chinese names are not that easy to pronounce for foreigners...
English and Chinese are completely different languages that won't be easy to translate. But for examples sake, my Mum's name is Yue Qin. It's extremely difficult for foreigners to pronounce by looking at it, but all she has to do is tell them once how to pronounce it (phonetically: "yoo-e ch-in") and usually people will remember. Keep in mind she has lived overseas for over 24 years and has never encountered any issues with her name...
Regarding your example of English people changing their name to Chinese, I disagree with that as well. They already have a name, why change it? As much as a foreigner can learn to say "Yue Qin", I'd imagine a Chinese person can just as easily learn how to say "Vivien" (even though the letter 'v' doesn't exist in pinyin.
And yes, I tentatively agree with your comment regarding Japanese "copying" cultures and ideas. But as an observation, in all my years in Australia, I have rarely met a Japanese person who has westernised their name. I have met alot of Chinese with names like "John Wu" and "Sally Liu" but rarely any Japanese who are "John Yamamoto" or "Sally Kawaguchi".
Great point!
Anyway, maybe that's why the Japanese's English is not so good :)
oh..it seems there is a fierce discussion about the english name;)
i have experenced the dilemma, insisting using your Pinyin or giving yourself an english name? it is tough. Actually, i searched on the website and wanted to choose a lovely name. However, most of the lovely name have been used by lots of chinese and it is hard to choose one that has rarely been used by others. So finally i gave up. Maybe Pinyin name is more individual and now i enjoy it.
But sometimes chinese have great english, not only meaningful but also soundable. for example, a chinese guy named Wu Di, then he called himself Woody,isn't it fascinated? in fact, i love that way.
anyway, that is my opinion. So enjoy your time:)
Ha, my name can be "Cheery", right?
Ah, you have so many names.
:)
(Made me remember The Simpsons Movie, Homer to Spider-Pig: Ah, you have so many looks.)
These names are all my "Ma Jar" ;)
lol.... A good Q and many smart As!
My real name is "Li Lisha", which was given by my lettered parents in early 50s, when our country was called upon to learn from Russian. So, my name was imprinted by age color. However, the two Chinese characters "Lisha" is exactly the Chinese translation for the English name Lisa (short for Elizabeth), while the English surname "Lee" sounds exactly like my Chinese surname "Li"!
I am quite proud of my name in English(Never regard It as an English name), which sounds similar to my original name but is merely changed the order. So, it is compatible of both family feelings and pronouncing habits of westerners.
Am I showing you here a good example?
Also a Lisa in The Simpsons Movie... I'm a big fan of the movie :)
If you are such a fan of Simpson, why not try this:
http://www.awflasher.com/blog/archives/1040
Hahaha...
Haha, okay Lisa, you got me. Your name is a great example of "crossing cultures".
It depends*. I think there're (at least) 2 uses of names:
1. the sign of your identity (oriented to yourself)
2. the sound or the words for other people to "mark" you (oriented to other people, esp. the people around you)
--------
if you choose 1, I think you'll never change it.
if you choose 2, I think in some occasions you'll change it
if you don't know which one to choose (if you want both), the answer will still be * :)
To name a Chinese name in English, I prefer Lun's main point.
Though one's name is only a sign by which you can be recognized from others, we still need to pay attention to the diffence between Chinese and English. The key element is
lol, Lun, you just let me to think of my son who hasn't had a name in English yet, though I pushed him times..... I hoped he could be harmony with Australian people as soon as posible.
Thus, I guess that my son might treasure his Chinese name given by us and show his respect to us in this way....
However, I also know my son who is quit lazy and don't like to change frequently......
So what's your son's name?
Hey, what's the matter here?
I just read Lun's new comments after I added mine and then i worte again based on Lun's new points. However, when I added my last one(see aboved), Lun's original disappeared....
Strange ya!
When you click on a "Reply to this comment", all the comments belong to that thread will be folded. After posting your comment, the page will be reloaded, you can find those folded comments again.
If you want to see them at once, click the "+" in front of the author's name or just click at the top of that thread ( There will be a background-color change )
you should add some effects to fold the comment.
Thanks. Sometimes effects just distract a user from some important information. And it also slows the browser down.
Anyway, I will consider that with some jQuery tricks.
oh,so many comments here~
the reason why i change my Pinyin name 'Tao Zhang' into 'Tower Zane' is that when i'm in high school , i got a good friend whose name is Tao Xu.
So we called us 'The Two Towers',just regarding to the lord of the rings.we love this movie , and our friendship , so the two towers came into our names. lol !
Does this confuse u ? In China , English name is not a necessary thing. We guys treat it like a nickname....maybe this is why we don't consider it as a serious thing.
Dude, I've never thought about it like that. I guess I'm taking the whole "english name" thing abit too serious yeah... Although as a side point, would you ever consider changing your name on your passport to Tower Zane?
To aw:
Thanks, I found this morning Lun's comment published on 2007-10-23 01:11:38, based on which my that comments(dated 2007-10-23 01:50:11) was written.
Thus, some questions here:
1, How is the order of comments arranged at ifgogo? It is ordered by published time, or by auther's name? I am confused with that. I think there needs some number to tab them.
2, Time at ifgogo is not Beijing time. Though we can calculate by the difference, it is still a small but frequent problem i am facing when i am here. Do you think so?
To Nail:
My son's name is Meng Zhang (last name is family name). He just got MBA degree from UTS Australia. Hope you young guys can be friend if you meet him!
Not change, maybe just get another one for another using.
My reason is simple, to be global and local
and I don't think it is disrespect to my culture
anything on surface does not change the fact that my bloodstream is chinese
The reason for me is simple: American's can never pronounce "XU" correctly and You is not a very convenient first name in communication.
Hi All?
Tks Aw for giving me a hint about this group blog.
It was funny to find that the comments here are even longer than the post. Well, it's good and bad. I felt uncomfortable to browse so much info. You guys might better simplify you ideas.
Back to Lun's question:
I'm in boston now and I use my Chinese name Jia as my name here. Two reasons: It's not that hard to pronnounce; It makes me different among others.My suggestion for those who want to balance pronnunciation and characteristics is to adjust your Chinese name a little bit. Say Jiajia could be Qiaqia, Qirui could be Keyree and so on...
I just think a unique name is the most important thing, whatever it's a Chinese name, English name, or anything that would come to your mind. Be creative and be original.
Oops,
Say Jiajia could be Qiaqia, it should be Chiachia.
I think it's really important to keep your name. It's part of who you are. We are seeing many immigrants change their name in Australia as they try to assimilate with Australian culture. Not so much for the asians, as we seem to be quite good with pronouncing asian names, it's mostly Middle Eastern people who are nominating to westernise their names.