Comments on: Peking Impressions http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/ Chinese in English Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:08:49 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Cat Chen http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-560 Cat Chen Tue, 12 Feb 2008 18:22:03 +0000 http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-560 One more point adds to Yu Zhiding's opinion. In the way of westernization, we learn how to respect other people's privacy. A northerner offers his help when he think help might be needed, with less concern of the privacy problem. If you don't accept the offer because of a privacy concern, that northerner might think this is just a push-and-pull routine, and insists on helping you. And finally, this might lead to embarrassing situation. When a southerner needs help, he would just ask for help, so this becomes a contract between southerners. But asking for help seems to be somehow more impolite to the traditional Chinese culture, so here comes the conflict. Didn't get it? Remember when you were still a child, you mom brought you to a friend's house, and you asked the host for sweets. Your mom might tell you it's impolite to do so and said apologize for your "immature request" to the host. So, in the traditional Confucianism ideal, nobody makes request, and everybody keeps guessing others' requests and then try to make an offer. But in Southern China, we just don't live in this Confucianism way. You can make requests, as long as they're reasonable. This helps make things clear, because you say it. You say that we can help you with this, without causing any privacy concern, and that's great. And if you say that this is trade, that's great too. Now we have a obvious deal, with no more unspoken rules. One more point adds to Yu Zhiding's opinion.

In the way of westernization, we learn how to respect other people's privacy. A northerner offers his help when he think help might be needed, with less concern of the privacy problem. If you don't accept the offer because of a privacy concern, that northerner might think this is just a push-and-pull routine, and insists on helping you. And finally, this might lead to embarrassing situation.

When a southerner needs help, he would just ask for help, so this becomes a contract between southerners. But asking for help seems to be somehow more impolite to the traditional Chinese culture, so here comes the conflict. Didn't get it? Remember when you were still a child, you mom brought you to a friend's house, and you asked the host for sweets. Your mom might tell you it's impolite to do so and said apologize for your "immature request" to the host. So, in the traditional Confucianism ideal, nobody makes request, and everybody keeps guessing others' requests and then try to make an offer.

But in Southern China, we just don't live in this Confucianism way. You can make requests, as long as they're reasonable. This helps make things clear, because you say it. You say that we can help you with this, without causing any privacy concern, and that's great. And if you say that this is trade, that's great too. Now we have a obvious deal, with no more unspoken rules.

]]> By: Cat Chen http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-559 Cat Chen Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:40:37 +0000 http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-559 Sorry for the wrong wikipedia link. Here's the right one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanxi Sorry for the wrong wikipedia link. Here's the right one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanxi

]]> By: Cat Chen http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-558 Cat Chen Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:20:20 +0000 http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-558 As a good author, you definitely should mind what kind of emotion your audiences would develop after reading your words. A Northern China businessman, who doesn't care about his customers, cares about his relatives and friends a lot. What does this mean? It means guangxi. If you don't know what's the difference between connection and guangxi, please read through this wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangxi If this stays as a personal habit, that's fine. But if this becomes social expectation for every grown-up, it will finally lead to bureaucracy. If you're a total stranger to an administrative official, he wouldn't care about whether you enjoy his service, because he only cares about when he's serving his relatives and friends. And you can't even use money to change this, because he doesn't care your money either. As a good author, you definitely should mind what kind of emotion your audiences would develop after reading your words.

A Northern China businessman, who doesn't care about his customers, cares about his relatives and friends a lot. What does this mean? It means guangxi. If you don't know what's the difference between connection and guangxi, please read through this wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guangxi

If this stays as a personal habit, that's fine. But if this becomes social expectation for every grown-up, it will finally lead to bureaucracy. If you're a total stranger to an administrative official, he wouldn't care about whether you enjoy his service, because he only cares about when he's serving his relatives and friends. And you can't even use money to change this, because he doesn't care your money either.

]]> By: Yu Zhiding http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-555 Yu Zhiding Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:03:35 +0000 http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-555 There's no need to regard Gijo's words as "a bit offensive" since I agree with her. Gijo is telling a truth, in a way we southerners don't want to hear. Obviously, Gijo didn't mean that Southerners totally don't care about others, but that Southerners CARE LESS THAN Northerners, which is a fact we can't ignore. And I'm sure some of us may also express similar words in a similar way, like“北京的服务态度差得要死”or“南方人就知道赚钱”(at least, I once expressed this sentence)... The fact is: you may not realize when you speak out while you may mind those words when you hear. So what's different between my view and Gijo's? It's the way we look into this matter. While Gijo regarded this as a loss of the precious morality and social atmosphere, I regard it as an inevitable process of commercialization. To illustrate it, suppose the difference between Courtyard(Siheyuan) and apartment, and the change brought to neighborhood's relationship from this difference. To some extent, Guangzhou is more like Hong Kong and western world, no matter in the way the government runs, or in the way people socialize. In Hong Kong, you will find local people quite polite, but they keep an appropriate distance from each other and never care others in a way the Northerners do. Turning to Beijing. People care much about relationship(renqing)，and this inevitablely brings bureaucracy when talking about government. Of course this situation also exists in Guangzhou. But I'm sure there's much less. I totally agree this sentence by Cat Chen: "I think trade in money is better than trade under unspoken rules." There's no need to regard Gijo's words as "a bit offensive" since I agree with her. Gijo is telling a truth, in a way we southerners don't want to hear. Obviously, Gijo didn't mean that Southerners totally don't care about others, but that Southerners CARE LESS THAN Northerners, which is a fact we can't ignore. And I'm sure some of us may also express similar words in a similar way, like“北京的服务态度差得要死”or“南方人就知道赚钱”(at least, I once expressed this sentence)... The fact is: you may not realize when you speak out while you may mind those words when you hear.
So what's different between my view and Gijo's? It's the way we look into this matter. While Gijo regarded this as a loss of the precious morality and social atmosphere, I regard it as an inevitable process of commercialization. To illustrate it, suppose the difference between Courtyard(Siheyuan) and apartment, and the change brought to neighborhood's relationship from this difference. To some extent, Guangzhou is more like Hong Kong and western world, no matter in the way the government runs, or in the way people socialize. In Hong Kong, you will find local people quite polite, but they keep an appropriate distance from each other and never care others in a way the Northerners do.
Turning to Beijing. People care much about relationship(renqing)，and this inevitablely brings bureaucracy when talking about government. Of course this situation also exists in Guangzhou. But I'm sure there's much less. I totally agree this sentence by Cat Chen: "I think trade in money is better than trade under unspoken rules."

]]> By: Gijo http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-554 Gijo Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:00:07 +0000 http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-554 Totally agree! Totally agree!

]]> By: Elliott Ng http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-549 Elliott Ng Tue, 12 Feb 2008 06:35:53 +0000 http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-549 @Gijo, I really appreciate your expressing your opinion freely. Yes, I have met some Beijingers who have been caring, warm, humorous, and straightforward. One of my best friends from China is from Beijing and represents some of the best values of Beijingers and Chinese people in general. I also feel Beijing is an exciting place for people who are involved in technology! In these companies, there are Chinese people from all provinces working together on challenging problems. Anyway, thanks again for expressing your honest opinions, and please continue to do that because it makes the ifgogo.com community stronger! I look forward to reading your blog posts and comments! @CatChen, Thank you also for refuting Gijo's argument with some good data points. I have another. We met with Andrew Yu, the founder of a non-profit called 1kg.org. He left his secure career as an engineer to give away books and school supplies to schools in small villages in China. Here is a link to the <a href="http://cnreviews.com/min_guo/grass-roots_ngos_in_china_20080117.html" rel="nofollow">1kg interview with Andrew Yu </a> on our CN Reviews blog. He happens to be Cantonese as well, and doesn't seem to care about money as much as he cares about these rural children! I would like to find ways to support his effort more, and we will be putting a donation button on our blog soon. @Gijo,
I really appreciate your expressing your opinion freely. Yes, I have met some Beijingers who have been caring, warm, humorous, and straightforward. One of my best friends from China is from Beijing and represents some of the best values of Beijingers and Chinese people in general. I also feel Beijing is an exciting place for people who are involved in technology! In these companies, there are Chinese people from all provinces working together on challenging problems. Anyway, thanks again for expressing your honest opinions, and please continue to do that because it makes the ifgogo.com community stronger! I look forward to reading your blog posts and comments!

@CatChen,
Thank you also for refuting Gijo's argument with some good data points. I have another. We met with Andrew Yu, the founder of a non-profit called 1kg.org. He left his secure career as an engineer to give away books and school supplies to schools in small villages in China. Here is a link to the 1kg interview with Andrew Yu on our CN Reviews blog. He happens to be Cantonese as well, and doesn't seem to care about money as much as he cares about these rural children! I would like to find ways to support his effort more, and we will be putting a donation button on our blog soon.

]]> By: Cat Chen http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-547 Cat Chen Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:19:50 +0000 http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-547 "People in Southern China always mind their own business, seldom care about others." Gijo, this is somewhat offensive, I think, and will of course bring words against your argument. I don't want to say why southerners are better than northerners, because this is such a bad move just like what you have done. In fact, you got to be see the brighter side of the people you have met. If you can't see it, try to discover it. Come to Canton, and see how mass media stand with grassroots instead of representing the authority. Both in Guangdong TV Station and Guangzhou TV Station, after the evening news there are grassroots news or grassroots shows. You can see, when people are confronted with different kind of daily problems, how they got help from others or from the government, or how the government failed their expectation. If you really want to know a true example about how well Cantonese mass media did, do some research around this blog post: http://blog.wangjunyu.net/980 In you're in any of the Cantonese QQ Groups, you can see messages calling for donation and voluntary to the people stuch in Guangzhou Station these days. Thousands of volunteers from high schools and colleges are trying to help those who have contributed to the city development and cannot get home on time. Tencent, which is a Shenzhen based company, donated 500k to these people. If you want to see photos, check out this blog post: http://blog.wangjunyu.net/976 In one sentence: Gijo, you just picked a wrong argument to express your love to the Northern China. "People in Southern China always mind their own business, seldom care about others."

Gijo, this is somewhat offensive, I think, and will of course bring words against your argument. I don't want to say why southerners are better than northerners, because this is such a bad move just like what you have done. In fact, you got to be see the brighter side of the people you have met. If you can't see it, try to discover it.

Come to Canton, and see how mass media stand with grassroots instead of representing the authority. Both in Guangdong TV Station and Guangzhou TV Station, after the evening news there are grassroots news or grassroots shows. You can see, when people are confronted with different kind of daily problems, how they got help from others or from the government, or how the government failed their expectation. If you really want to know a true example about how well Cantonese mass media did, do some research around this blog post:
http://blog.wangjunyu.net/980

In you're in any of the Cantonese QQ Groups, you can see messages calling for donation and voluntary to the people stuch in Guangzhou Station these days. Thousands of volunteers from high schools and colleges are trying to help those who have contributed to the city development and cannot get home on time. Tencent, which is a Shenzhen based company, donated 500k to these people. If you want to see photos, check out this blog post:
http://blog.wangjunyu.net/976

In one sentence: Gijo, you just picked a wrong argument to express your love to the Northern China.

]]> By: Min Guo http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-546 Min Guo Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:17:01 +0000 http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-546 Aw, yes... I don't know about other Cantonese, but I didn't have a very good first impression on Beijing. I blamed it for Beijing local people being rude to me back then. But after these years, I realized that mabye I have an unreasonablely higher expectation on Beijing simply because it is our capital city, and this is unfair. Anther reason is the language. Cantonese and Mandarin are "two languages". Even though we speak Putonghua, I believe there is a cultural barrier for us to understand Beijing dialect completely which might create misunderstanding. Aw, yes... I don't know about other Cantonese, but I didn't have a very good first impression on Beijing. I blamed it for Beijing local people being rude to me back then. But after these years, I realized that mabye I have an unreasonablely higher expectation on Beijing simply because it is our capital city, and this is unfair. Anther reason is the language. Cantonese and Mandarin are "two languages". Even though we speak Putonghua, I believe there is a cultural barrier for us to understand Beijing dialect completely which might create misunderstanding.

]]> By: Cat Chen http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-545 Cat Chen Mon, 11 Feb 2008 16:49:35 +0000 http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-545 Chinese people are so eager to express themselves, and are so eager to control their own lives, but they just can't. People, who really care politics, contribute their own effort to the change. People, who talk a lot about politics without taking an action, know how helpless they are. Okay! Whatever! Back to what Gijo said. Chinese people are so eager to express themselves, and are so eager to control their own lives, but they just can't.

People, who really care politics, contribute their own effort to the change. People, who talk a lot about politics without taking an action, know how helpless they are.

Okay! Whatever! Back to what Gijo said.

]]> By: jichuan http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-539 jichuan Mon, 11 Feb 2008 05:44:50 +0000 http://www.ifgogo.com/38/peking-impressions/#comment-539 To Gijo: "They care about people outside Beijing, outside Northern China, even outside the country." Do they? Maybe they do not really care about others' life, but use it as a topic for chatting. To Gijo:
"They care about people outside Beijing, outside Northern China, even outside the country."

Do they? Maybe they do not really care about others' life, but use it as a topic for chatting.

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